And the moral of the story is....................

What do you think the Moral of the story was?

Skill trumps toys?

And luck trumps skill?

Don't risk it...Shoot 50BMG! That my friends, is the moral of the story!

Yeah, for lightweights

If you're serious, shoot a 20mm:

http://www.anzioironworks.com/20MM-TAKE-DOWN-RIFLE.htm

When you care enough to REALLY HURT someone.

That's an awesome rifle,I wish I could afford it! Everything about that screams expensive. I bet reloading 20MM is just great!

GA,



The moral of this thread is at least three fold:

1. For game - .22lr can do the job. For game hunting all we care about is lethality. The deer or whatever is not going to shoot back at us. Our life isn't threatened if it takes a few minutes for the deer to succumb to its wound. The deer can’t take those minutes to pull a trigger in our direction. It will eventually bleed out and then we can go and harvest the meat. While it is bleeding out – we don’t have to worry about all the deer’s buddies shooting at us. We can sit there and do nothing with not a care in the world.

2. For anti-personnel use - we don't much care about lethality - we care about cessation of hostile action. During violent gun fights - 99.99999% of the time we don't have the luxury of sitting still and getting a perfect shot off under ideal (for hunting anyway) conditions. Our foe won’t be standing there grazing on grass and lazily lift his head while giving us a perfect side shot. One shot most of the time will NOT do the job – no matter what the caliber is (OK – I’ll concede the 20mm will probably do it with one round – but even the mighty .50 BMG round is not a guaranteed one shot stopper) – we will need to send some follow up rounds. We need rounds that cause the most damage to the most organs/vessels/veins/arteries as practical/possible. The .22lr ain’t that round. It is not known to be devasting when hitting game. In fact – it is used for game for the OPPOSITE reason – because it DOESN’T damage “meat”. For shooting bad guys – we want to damage as much meat as possible, in the shortest time possible. We want the bad guy to be more worried about the damage done to his body than his desire to kill us.

3. If the .22lr is used against hostile threats - it is used in VERY specialized applications. When used for "crowd control" - it is employed from rooftops or from inside apartments shooting down into the street. The shooter is isolated from violent action of the crowd - and is protected by security teams on the ground floor. So he is more like the hunter shooting a deer. The .22lr has also been used for assassination. Two operatives would walk up to the target and both would empty their .22lr handguns into the back of the targets head. Here it is a lone target - the shooters aren't worried about having to engage anyone else - so it is more like the hunter shooting a deer.

4. We need to worry about the ALL the bad guys in the area – not just the “one”. Bad guys aren’t alone. They travel in squads/gangs. We need a projectile delivery system that can rapidly shoot rounds reliably. The .22lr can’t be relied upon to do that. Since real ammo has become so expensive – along with a lot of other people I have started shooting a lot more .22lr ammo. The ammo is unreliable and so are the firearms. The .22lr ammunition is the hardest ammo to make reliable because of the design. It has a huge rim. The rim must fit in the magazine, which means there is a lot of slop for the rest of the round in the magazine. When the bolt pushes the round forward the front can veer off to either side on its way to the chamber. The chamber can’t be chamfered much or the rim will sink too far in to be hit by the firing pin. So – rimfires malfunction. A LOT. I will not take a firearm into harms way that malfuntions. I train to remediate malfunctions – but I don’t want them happening. With a .22 – you KNOW malfs will happen.

Bottom line – leave the .22lr for hunting applications.

cheers

tire iron

Well if anything I thought I did post it in the wrong section but I had already posted it. Wasnt sure how to repost it. But I would of ment in the ammo section speaking of the 22lr round not the rifle it shot so I do think it is in the wrong section so please do feel free to move it.

Right on!

I will repost this in the Survival forum where it will fit very well. Great thread for that section!!

cheers

tire iron

Thank you for moving it for me Tire Iron!

I for one was kinda impressed in what the 22lr round did to that turkey from that far with 3 layer of clothes.

Yeah - I know some guys in the south that use .22lr to harvest deer every year.

If you hit 'em in the right spot - they die!

cheers

tire iron

Good guns for training new recruits that they cant get themselve hurt on to easily, (well, just remember to tell them not to look down the barrel ). Then upgrade them to the .223 or 7.62 that they will carry from then on. And if its the only thing thats available, its better than nothing, but just.

IMO the 22 caliber will best be suited for Hunting, Practicing, and Defense. Now don't misinterpret what I mean by defense. I don't recommended it for militia use unless it deals with the first two (Hunting and Practicing) BUT for an unprotected or unskillfully trained threat the 22 will be exactly what your looking for especially if you want to lower the chance of having someones life on your soul. Just remember people who have been in a threatening situation most likely now prefer the "One Shot One Kill" solution. Well I hope i helped anyone interested in the 22 caliber, Also the Ruger 10/22 are so FUN!

If I was to worry about having someone's life on my soul, why would I carry a weapon at all?

Anyone planning on using the .50, or the 20mm for their personal tactical weapon has a penis complex. Its to heavy, to costly to own and operate. The Military application of both calibers are for hard targets. Tanks. Bunkers. Trucks. Etc. Not for engaging enemy soldiers.

Overkill.

maybe they suffer from "barrel envy"

I'm not a gun expert at all and honestly I'm fairly new to guns. I've shot guns as a kid but only every so often and only recently have I had a true interest in them.

I've been beginning to prepare and I plan on keeping a wellstocked BOB in my car so I have it at all times. My question for everyone is what should I use for a bug out rifle in my car? I could use any cheap gun. It could be a .22 (which I already have with lots of ammo) semi-auto, or I could go buy something with more stopping power like a Mosin Nagant. I just figured I'd ask this in the .22 thread. I only need this gun to 1) ward off any threats if there are any 2) bring with me if I head for the hills.

FWIW, since I almost always have a Glock strapped to me my in-BoB survival gun is a .22 conversion kit for the glock. While the kits aren't especially cheap, they aren't guns themselves so they have fewer security issues, and provide me the option of having a major caliber defensive weapon and a 'survival' caliber. I do the same thing with an AR conversion kit.

Question on the .22 AR conversion kits, are the CMMG hicap polymer .22 AR mags compatible with the GI or Ciener conversion kits?

They work fine with my Ciener... Although I gotta give the CMMG kit a plus 1 to the Ciener.

Besides having to register a 20mm rifle as a destructive device with the BATF and pay them $200 don't you have to pay the BATF a $200 tax on each round of 20mm ammo?

No, just $5 as a DD. But you can make your own

What is considered a DD?

A destructive device, like a hand grenade.

So anything that goes BOOM really loud? What is the penalties for having one?

DD's are a 200 tax there, and as long as it is not an explosive round there would be no registering of the round itself. For instance you can buy an LMT M203 and pay the 200 tax for the registration of a DD, and shoot hand loaded chalk rounds or "Beehive" rounds out of it all day long and you are fine. To get the HX rounds you would have to find someone that would be willing to sell you one which is near impossible, but in order to buy them you have to get an explosives license, meet federal, state and local ordinances to have an explosive magazine and then pay the 200 tax for each round.... Out of the question for the average person.

The only NFA item that is a 5 dollar tax is an AOW, and that is for the transfer, if you make your own AOW and are not a licensed SOT manufacturer you are forking out 200.00.

I do believe you can build your own AOW from a shotgun, IF you start with a new virgin receiver that has never been registered before.

Correct or in some states if the shotty started life out without a proper stock attached when it left the manufacturer... Here in Indiana the pistol gripped shotty is transfered as a pistol on the 4473, but of course it isn't the same as a real pistol... but that pistol transfer of the shotty allows you to manufacturer it as a AOW for your own personal use.. on a Form 1... Once registered and properly engraved, it can never be a pistol again... So, if it were to be taken out of the registery later on in life it would only be able to be made into a full size shotty again... and I believe any Registry device that starts life out in the registery on a Form 1 can only be owned by the original form 1 manufacturer. Along the same lines as a home made standard firearm... for your own personal use.... There is a way around all that "only one owner" but it requires use of a corporate intity of a sort to do... Sorry way too much info, but thought I would throw out there what my research has gleamed on the subject...