This is just a placeholder for a project I have in mind. This is a place for people to learn and teach... I will explain more later... I think the power system could be done for around 6k including batteries at current prices if done your self. I think the same system could be 20-40k if installed by professionals. I may be wrong but I appreciate all who wish to brainstorm with me. My consideration is a less than 1500 sq foot 3 bedroom home. I will put links to equipment i am looking at and ask for input. I will also try to provide sources for my system in planning. This is a two year plan for me. In one year I move/find our new home. Next year im mostly off the grid... more later

Thanks
J

All easier said than done.

The fish element is very tricky. It requires fish breeds which will grow to a harvestable size in a relatively small area in the climate where you expect to live.

I was just discussing this with a guy from Lousiana and he is reccomending catfish, but catfish also are in my not so humble opinion, a "trash fish", with very little meat compared to waste. Good news is that all of the waste (fish guts, head, spine ect) can be fed to hogs.

I would also highly suggest looking into what John Wesley Rawles is saying these days. The shift is toward supporting and beefing up a rural farmstead type place, not trying to be the hero of the culdesac. Now personally, I think the culdesac places can work.

Converting a regular on-grid home to off grid is just about NEVER cost effective. What makes off grid technology cost effective is that it makes previously unserviced properties usable, which means unimproved land or land without much for utilities can become usable for less than the $30,000 in power lines, permits, and contractor costs that are averages for regular municipal hookups.

We can do pretty decent off grid electrical power in the $3,000-$5,000 range as long as you are not too agressive about power usage. Go up to $10K and you can run a pretty decent little workshop on the free electricity and generate income one way or another.

I currently own around 2KW worth of solar panels, but that is not all on a single large array. About 600 watts will be contributed to a group array at a retreat which will be producing just about 2KW to run a workshop through batteries and a 5KW inverter which will be the equivalent to running a 5KW gas generator whenever the sun is out, but with no fuel costs. There are equipment issues with occasional component replacement, no so much on the panels, but items like batteries, charge controllers and inverters.

Tracking the build cost on the semi-mobile workshop array will help us figure out where to price them at when we are trying to sell them, but I am thinking they will be around $4500 to make, take a week or two to make, and ought to sell for no less than $6,000 per copy. Sounds like a lot of money to replace a $500 generator, but remember, there is no fuel cost after that and the systems can easily have a 20 year service life, that's running 20 years, daily. At the 20 year mark, it will likely still work, just need a rebuild.

I totally agree. I was thinking tilapia or bluegill. I do appreciate a catfish dinner now and again but could not subject my family nor myself to that more than once a month. If catfish were to be raised it would need to be for profit or trade.

This is the battery bank calculator I used.
It suggests for my needs 2 banks of 8 sams club six volt batteries.
http://www.freesunpower.com/battery_designer.php#startRed

This is the wind kit. I am thinking a 48 volt system is the way to go. Notice the charge controller is way more than needed and solar can be tied in... as for the solar part 10 235 watt panels can be had on ebay for around 1700 dollars. I could make the trip to indiana to pick them up and even visit my nieces on the way.
http://www.mwands.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=43_64&products_id=434

For a load dump this is what I have in mind. I also have a microcomputer that can control heating and cooling which would work nicely to prevent the water from getting too hot.

http://www.sespvt.com

dc hot water elements

DC LED lighting while hard to find is available and not cost prohibited. 48 volts was decided upon considering running dc through the house.

Something like this would be used for outlets. Each outlet, around one per room would have its own 48-12 volt inverter which would allow a dc powered tv and computer to be connected. Also a swich would be attached to each outlet so the inverter cant rob power when not used... Now we have a powerful computer for each person in a family of five. It will be changed to one power hungry server and 5 raspberry pi's with energy efficiant dc powered tv/monitors
https://www.platt.com/platt-electri...e/Leviton/5821-I/product.aspx?zpid=35217

I agree that retrofitting a home is a challenge but I see it as just a bit more challenging than installing ethernet...

For your fish element as you stated, have you considered talapia (misspelled)?

Permaculture a pretty straight forward providing you stay within your zones for planting.

Yes tilapia on top of list.

My plan in progress may have and probably does have a lot of miscalculations. Thats why I started this thread. To help people that know less than I and to get help from people that know more....

Things to consider when discussing permaculture. Asparagus along old barns or in rows. Plant and do not harvest the first year crop. You will be good after that.

Kiwis and yes they have arctic varieties and can grow just about anywhere. More vitamin C than an orange.

Strawberries always plant different varieties. Blueberries do same as above. Peaches are more work because of all the diseases and pest. Fruit trees may require a IPM (integrated pest management program).

Blackberries and raspberries. Plan ahead and do your homework.

Thank you Leonidas.

Planning ahead is the reason for this thread. I like the idea of an orchard but not the idea of the cost to get started. I have been studying up on grafting and rootstock. I also have started a worm farm by shredding old bills and newspapers and having Lori save the coffee grounds. I am going to order a couple pounds of red wigglers once the dollar a bag composted manure and peat moss are in season. I think in about a week or two.

I know this post is all over the place but for the most part I am interested in input on the self supplied energy part.

Do you have experience with fruit trees. I dont like the idea of spraying. I would prefer to grow organicly...

There are organic sprays. One bout with bugs and fungus will have you re-thinking all of that "natural" stuff about not using any sprays at all. I have a small orchard of ruined apple trees down in Southern Oregon as testament to the lazy excuses for not spraying having something to do with being "more natural".

Fruit trees used to come with a saying "it is an investment to take care of your grandkids". A pretty good one at that. You are unlikely to see a whole lot of benefit from it in the first decade, but cultivated right, fruit trees can vastly benefit later generations.

There is a farming area I visit in Washington state from time to time and it is easy to spot the active Apple farms from the less active ones which have been going downhill for lack of labor. The less active orchards though can be revived if someone sprays and works them, but when not active, the apples just grow, fall and rot. If they go too long though, that fungus sets in. I have a pear tree in the back yard I did not get around to spraying in time and it went a few years, the problem here being that it is so wet that you can't get the spray on and to stay on in the right season to do it because the rain is so constant at the same time.

I read an ad for aquaponics using a combination of a fish tank to grow fish and hydroponic system to grow vegetables, where the fish waste is used to fertilize the plants.

Hadn't thought about it before but might work. i would require fish food and a circulating pump to move water. I'm guessing solar would be best. Hopefully this is somewhat on topic.

That's basically the system in a nutshell. The system loses water through evaporation, but most of the water just keeps circulating through and the loss is so low that the systems generally don't even need their own plumbing. They can work with water just being hauled in and the system topped off every once in a while to make up for that evaporation loss.

Breacher, Have you seen it work? How effective are the systems?

Sisu, Breacher was spot on when he referred to the organic spray comment. When it comes to sprays, you got to go with the real deal. However, you can use Ivory soap and water. Make it real sudzy and spray it on your plants for bugs. When it rains, just repeat the process. Labor intensive.

You can cut sprigs off of lets say a pear tree and stick it in the ground. It will start you a new pear tree. Hope this helps a little bit.

Cant help on the power. Just on things involving Horticulture, Arborculture,agronomy and some agriculture.

Wish you the best.

I have seen one up close and it was not very impressive, but several people have some pretty good ones do video presentations on Youtube.

The youtube video people talk about the successes and failures, so there is a huge pool of knowledge region by region on the subject.

I see it as a reasonable solution to feed a family or small tribe. I will look for the Youtube videos.

ok so i ment aquaponics not culture. and there is nothing off topic. lets hear from all. this is not at all practice yet

we could even add vermiculture to the list. we just ordered a bunch of worms so now we will compost indoors. no caps cause keyboard died...

Here is a probably new idea to me but not so new idea. It is a prepper idea. I guess I'm a prepper. I'm not a tree hugger but I think the greenies may be onto something. Global warming real or not... We can learn from each other and we can all agree being self sufficient is better for your family, the environment, and our country. So as you all know I want to move to a more rural area. I want enough land that I can use to supplement my family and be in a survivable position if SHTF. We need 3 bedrooms minimum. But I think if we need 3 bedrooms minimum we actually need 4 minimum. We need to have a place for a fellow patriot. If we in a SHTF setting and had to be a host for a patriot.
And in a SHTF situation the extra man earning his keep would be well invited...

S

I have been working a big chunk of the last week clearing out a woods/orchard area for some of this but we are talking manual farming with minimal upkeep since I don't live at the location full time. There is apparently the concept of "food forest" that some of the people here are researching.

Either way, it starts with removal of underbrush and the lower branches of the trees so that air and light get to the forest floor.

I hauled a 10HP chipper to the place but it is not nearly powerful enough to handle the chipping job of what turns out to be an orchard that stood neglected for around 14 years. Even 14 years ago, it had not been particularly well cared for, and I estimate the fruit trees were planted in the early 1980s. What happens is the middle foilage areas become one big bushy mess and it takes a couple seasons to recover the trees to productivity after a lot of that junk gets cut out. I guess part of the reality I have to deal with is that my background on aborist tree care is for landscaping, not fruit production, so shitty looking trees can product more and better fruit than a lot of picturesque looking tress.

The way I am cleaning the woods up, a dozen small one bedroom cabins with a common workshop and communal kitchen is entirely realistic. Matter of fact, 20 residential cabins and a full on chow hall is more like it.

In any event, the formula is work + resources = product. Permaculture is a fancy new word for the age old practice of self sufficient farming.

One issue is that the places need years of prep before they can be set up for having a lot of people on permanent residency. I am working mostly alone on the section that I am in charge of here and we just don't have the manpower or pooled resources to make it very productive. Anyone bugging out to this location would need to bring or pre-position a minimum of six months worth of supplies just on the model of getting it up to speed for food production, and realistically, we would be looking at two full seasons, that's two years before most meals would be the product of actual on property food production. I would guess though, that a big chunk of the diet would be locally produced toward the end of the first regular garden season.

I think what works in the ongoing lifestyle situation is that if you are middle class or below, then food production as a non-taxable means of personal wealth production and conservation is a viable alternative to going on the treadmill of going out to work for "the man" and pay more taxes, and become more dependent on the system, where the classes targeted for extermination (surplus workers in an increasingly service based post industrial economy) can exercise more autonomy through self sufficiency.

Reducing your food bill by say, $250 per month might mean the difference between still owning a pickup truck in addition to the family car on a minimum legal wage job vs working an additional part time job for less take home pay than what you save on having your own food production, which you can't get laid off or fired from.

as long as you an still pay the taxes...

thanks Breacher

I no longer volunteer anything for the government but I do volunteer plenty on behalf of REAL Americans.

Breacher, you have quite the job there. Pruning fruit trees is hard work and pruning fruit trees that have not been taken care and kept up with is a dauntless task.

Throw in a homeowner brush chipper and your ass can be classified as officially kicked. On one hand, I wish I was there to lend a hand. On the other, Im glad Im not.

You got it right on the pruning method as well. Fruit trees that produce fruit are not pruned for aesthetics.

http://www.geofflawton.com/sq/15449-geoff-lawton

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEA7BA330871366B8

http://www.polyfacefarms.com/