I can not tell what will take place in the near future concerning our freedom. Things can turn on a dime. So in order to redeem the time I will state right now that we need a plan. I do not know how this applies to everyone. All I know is the local group I have associated has disappeared because of accusations against it involving the media. This has made me wonder, what will happen if for some reason... there is all out war, and perhaps the power grid is gone... and there is no internet connection, and thus, nobody on this forum. What do we do?

As some of you know, I ran a survival school for 5 years previous to bible college (presently I have been kicked out for speaking out against Obama, etc.)...the thought comes to mind that many people will need me. Why? Because I can live off the land with just the shirt on my back.

The highest compliment anyone ever paid me was from an Army Ranger. He sat in on some of my classes he enrolled his son in. I did not know he was a ranger, until he told me so. He said, "In the Rangers, we were taught how to survive, but it was with the focus on getting back to civilization. What you teach is amazing, because you teach how to stay out permanently, and never return to civilization!"

Now, I am not sharing this to toot my own horn. While I am a completely self reliant individual, capable of leaving into wilderness with just the shirt on my back, I also understand I will never know everything there is to know about wilderness skills. Why? Because wilderness has more to teach, than a man has a life to learn. There is a point you establish self reliance, and then the rest there after... is knowledge modern man does not ponder because it is alien to his environment.

So I propose this now. If you are interested in establishing a community under the scourge of national disaster, let's discuss this now. Where. How. When. Etc.

I know the perfect place for this. You may have another. But we need to work these things out, so when the bomb drops, or necessity demands you flee your region.... we all know where to meet.

Establishing such a community can also function as a "hide out" for insurgents in the 2nd American Revolution. It is necessary to establish this now. Because if the media can scare a group out of commission... then what will the Obamanite militia crack down do?

I do not mean to disparage the group that "disbanded" by any means. I simply am making my point, that if you want to work together before disaster, on how to establish an off the grid 100% self reliant community, then let's talk.

Well as far as going off the grid goes, I have a Generator an a HAM, going to get my licence for it in a few weeks here, so that is a good start.

After tonight, I really consider that it could happen. I hope with all my heart it does not, but is seems to me as thought the government is no longer willing to listen to the will of the people.

I have been looking for easy to set-up and use power generation systems (solar, wind, etc.) Cost is a factor for me but if anyone here has info I'd appreciate a heads up, site link, etc.

For me I just use my Lincoln Ranger GXT 250 welder, it will supply 200 amps of 230 volt electricity, burns about 2 gallons an hour.

If the fecal matter hits the rotating oscilator, I am in an industrial area, there is a shell station up the street, id be able to get fuel out of there for quite some time once the fuel I keep on hand runs out.

Your answers suggest why I brought this up. I do not know about the things you are great at. You have skills I do not. However, while I am sure I am not the only one around with good survival skills, I have devoted the past 20 years to mastery of this field alone.

Welders, and supplies are great. If you can get them into a remote location and use them in the field, excellent. What I am proposing is not a technology based survival community. I am not against people having mechanical and technological stuff... I think it is fine if it works for you... but I am talking about complete self-sufficient (without technology) community in a remote location. If you can bring a welder and use it, fine. If you can have canned goods, fine. But the foundation of this community would have pure, raw, natural rescources as it's foundation... and everyone would use them for core sustenence. If someone had some farm-type implement or way of doing something, I don't see a problem with that. Like I said, we all have various skills that complement another. My expertise is solely in 100% primitive living. If you asked me to write for Motherearth news, I may not know what to say... Cause that is another kind of "off the grid" living.

I started practicing survival skills when I was 16. I tried everything in every book, only to discover that none of it worked. It sold books. Plain & simple. Disheartened I turned to Cahokia mounds museum, and began talking with archaelologists about HOW the prehistoric indians lived here. That started me on the right track of learning by trial and error. Then I went off to college to study Anthropology. From here... I established self reliance. I finally made functional bows (my first 4 broke) and I could finally make friction fires, chip out razor sharp arrow heads (I even ran an arrow through my arm in an accident and lived... despite arterior bleeding)... I was out for 3 months in 2000 wherein I tangled with big cats, etc. only to end up getting married a year later and starting the survival school.

For 20 years I have devoured every conceivable publication regarding primitive skills. I have heard just about everything. There are so many ways of doing the same thing... be it fire, tanning, putting up meat, making a better bow, etc. I have developed my own style, because it works best for me. This is all I have to give. I know a little about using modern stuff... but I do not know alot, because I have devoted my self to obtaining one kind of knowledge and one kind only.

So you too have specialized knowledge that could benefit such a group. You too have spent your years in devotion to some sort of knowledge. We both need eachother.

So for starters, I know a place where the water is pure. It is a place full of springs and miles from anyone or anything. I lived there 2 months. It has flint in the creeks. The finest hardwoods. Thousands of plant species for medicine/food. Game is abundant. I always saw at least a dozen deer/day. Turkey every other day. I did tangle with a black panther, twice. They are there too. But we can fix their wagon. The natural stone is the shape of castle rock. Easy fortifications could be build. It is so remote, that nature will tell you when someone or something foreign has entered the woods, giving plenty of time to prepare. While there is no place in the lower 48 where a man does not go... I can assure you, you will not see anyone for weeks or months if you so desire. If worse comes to worse, this place is where I will go. But maybe you have a spot.

Someone's farm might be okay. But the problem is, it is still under someone's name. What I propose is so off the grid... there is no tracealbe paper work or name or registry of anyone or anything. Simply living like "wild indians"... but with AR's & AK's... along with the sinew backed bow & arrow and simple "trappers cabin". National Forest. Remote.

I trap, track and hunt pretty successfully. Grew up with nothing but wood heat and no running water in the winter.
Of course this was back when my helping the farmer down the road hay and milk was rewarded with help lugging water in zero degree weather.
It might sound crazy but - Detroit has homes for sale for cheap and a lot of people giving up and leaving. Seems like folks who wanted to start fresh could maybe make a go of it in that area.

We are certainly going to need people who can live at a Stone Age level of existence because well, things are going to collapse anyway.

Now, as for a refuge if you just hide the enemy will not be impeded and we'll be considered trophy hunting. Have to make them react to us. Everything from nonviolent noncompliance to political takeovers of rural communities, temporary autonomous zones(go to John Robb's Global Guerillas for definition), to throwing bricks in windows to... basically engage the enemy with the full spectrum of resistance everywhere. And most importantly be successful.

Saying that, we need to get back to basics for awhile before we can build our own economy, infrastructure up and be Free.

J. Croft, I am not suggesting "hiding". The place I have in mind is strategic. It was in native times when the shawnees built stone fortifications in the region. It is higher ground. With springs that feed nearly every river in the state. The water can not be contaminated. Thus the game is available for a group of people to depend upon. The timber is the finest. What I am saying is, it has the finest rescources. Next, it is riddled with Canyons. Any approaching enemy would be found out. The forest is thick, mature old growth. Thus planes from above will not detect things well. There are numerous caverns/caves/rock shelters. So plenty of concealment.

I don't care if the enemy sent the marines in after someone... nature would tell you someone is coming, long before they arrive. From a tactical perspective, high ground is better.

I have been many places in the US in my search for the perfect place to live off the land. This place is it. It does not get better. Even the soil is good.

I agree about engaging the enemy... but that is not what this post is about. It is about having a secret community to fall back on. Sending men out is easy to do without detection as rivers join streams that lead to the springs. A group could float out, without leaving a trail to follow. To get there, however, is a long haul.

The drop off's to the canyons are perfect for ambush. Any enemy coming from lower ground is corraled by 400 foot cliffs into a narrow passage of about 100 to 200 yards wide. Snipers could easily take out intruders.

Compare all of this to billy bob's farm, surronded by a bunker and powered by a windmill/solar panels. It is too easy to lay seige to it. Too small to rely on for years, without leaving to resupply.

Having a string of these communities, would be wise. If something happened, the group could slip out by walking the streams for several miles (which are stone!) until they could float out to the major rivers, and from there...bivouc into other national forest and join other communities.

What I love about the desert badlands is how the wind carries sound.

You can hear a tourist complain about the heat kilometers away. You can hear little kids whining. But for a desert rat like me, they often don't hear or see anything till I'm right at their location.

Ancientskills I am in texas but would like to seriously talk about what you suggested.I am 21 But have been studying survival skills since I was 10 or 11.Like you I have read everything I could on the subject, I have educated myself on ancient farming techniques and shelter building,and hand to hand combat with lances spears and staffs. I too have "safe spots" where me and several people can go, if we needed to bug out,in the surrounding area,with water game timber no caves or anything like that though,but we have swamps and hollows that are easy to dissapear into. If you would p.m. me and we can discuss this further.

A few have p.m.'d me. And I will answer you if I have not yet.

2 Options come to mind:

1. We can meet at an agreed location, to scout it for strategic positioning, locate and discuss rescources, plan entry and exit of area, etc.

2. We can post coordinates or maps (in private) so that if others can not make it to meet together, they can still find us after catastrophe strikes.

Having these locations established, we can also configure routes to and from established camps, so as to go undetected... Even if they are across states.

Are you guys kidding ? it is best to fight form the mountains using guerrilla warfare this is going to be very tough having homeland security around

Im hoping the Military would conduct a coup
and then we could act under posse comitatus that asking too much though

^^^Your not thinking about the whole picture,some of us have families and friends who couldnt be expected to fight, whether to old or to young,and they will need a place to go while those who can fight go and do so.We will also need hidden areas to refit and rest up,and a neighborhood aint the greatest place to do that,neither is a private farm or other privately owned large piece of property,the enforcers will search and then what,your safehouse is compromised and you have to bug out.Living off national forest land makes perfect sense to me. as does having a place to go when it gets REAL BAD as it is bound to do

Backwoods understands what I am saying. Grandma and the 4 year old can not fight, and we don't leave them behind. That is exactly my point. There must be a place to re-fit.

The places I am refering to are only approached from lower ground. 1500 to 2,000 ft. elevation at the highest. As the enemy travels up, they will be funneled by cliffs that are 200 to 400 feet high. By funnel, I mean just that. The springs are some 20 miles from the low land and are the highest point. From there they flow out to feed the rivers. If we settle the springs, no one can contaminate the water supply, because it is artesian.

In addition, the cliffs offer lookout points, and give the advantage of ambush. If the enemy scales the cliffs (which I doubt) they are still on lower ground. If they are in the funneled valleys formed by the streams, then they are corraled and can be picked off from militia posted atop the cliffs.

In addition, the streams are full of stone. In many places it would be exceedingly difficult to track anyone coming in or going out.

The trees are old growth. Full maturity. The ground is nearly invisible from the air, except for spots of prairie in some openings.

When the leaves fall, there are still rock shelters, and it would be easy to disguise any occupation on the ground, because of all the boulders strewn threw the stream valleys. There are caves too.

The Appalachians of Eastern Tennessee

The Appalachians of Western Virginia and Eastern West Virginia

The Rockies of Western Montana

And of course the proposed State of Jefferson

Where are you talking about?

For OPSEC sake, I will not discuss location live on the forum. You know the Fed's are here, lurking.

That goes for others who have suggestions. If you have a place, don't tell us where. Tell us about it. Don't say where it is.

It is smart to build up spots well ahead of time so that you have more time for nature to partially take things back over before you really put it to use. Letting things like disturbed dirt and vegetation settle out and regrow.

I had set up a small string of emergency flood drainage ditches on a property in CA years ago, then got bored, had the tools around, and turned it into a trenchwork with a couple of fighting positions that had overhead cover from pallets covered again with some plastic and dirt over the top, then I tossed grass seed around to obscure the amount of work that had actually been done. Grass crew up in the "bunkers" to the point they would have been impossible to tell from right on top of them, and putting them back to use was just a matter of stomping the grass down.

I think some later tenants on the property just used them for an illegal garbage dump and covered them up.

What I see would effectively be construction of discreet campground facilities with latrines, improved parking and drainage. Trees and large bushes groomed to act as cover and camo net tie-in points. Lay in low value bulk supplies that people are unlikely to want to bug out with but can enhance quality of life at the place if it becomes occupied full time.

Wells, cisterns, even a buried fuel tank that you would keep empty if you are really cheapskate about it, but have out there available to fill up as a fuel depot if you were to need it.

Latrine and garbage pit construction - digging, some construction, building the toilets, putting toilet paper in storage at the latrine points.

Water collection and distribution points (important in western states) - running water lines from a water source to a collection point (may or may not remain hooked up). Running water lines from the main collection point to a few distribution points. Pot growers in Northern California are masters of that sort of thing. They use a lot of the kind of black hose tubing that landscapers use to lay in sprinkler systems. Systems involve things like plastic barrels, sometimes larger water tanks. Some cheap sneaky ones involve those little children's backyard wading pools just set in the ground and covered with black tarp material (black is used a lot to reduce freeze damage). Greywater drainage is done with drainage tile, and that is sometimes used for sewage running to dirt bunker type septic tanks (they never get emptied, just covered over when full). The greywater and septic tank system is an issue if you are setting it up as an RV compatible site.

Fuel storage is usually best dealt with by pre-staging drums and pumps for the drums. Pre-staging fuel stores is a hotly debated issue, especially when some people start hogging fuel that others bought. At least the drums are not terribly expensive and can be used for a lot of stuff if you have even rudimentary welding and fabrication skills and equipment. Super cheapskate scenario is you pre-stage drums, then when you get out there in a bugout, you are likely going to be on some sorts of gas rationing systems anyway. You pull your vehicles up to the fuel point and siphon some fuel into the buried drums then go back out to civilization and buy or otherwise obtain your rations of gas, all while building up what would probably be an illegal but highly prized stash of fuel.

Power, well there is the off the grid stuff. Solar is not something I would leave out on site due to country scavengers, unless I had gotten the panels cheap, or by scavenging, or had pretty good security control on the property 24/7/365 anyway, like when you are prepping a rural property for larger scale use. You can plot out the panel points, maybe pre-lay some wire scavenged from abandoned or condemned buildings.

You can pre-lay wire for your on site hardwire commo, like field phones or a simple phone or internet system. Pre-laid network cable would allow for silent and fairly secure commo at the site.

There are some food crops that you can pre-plant which will either A: be edible at least part of the year you are out there or B: attract game animals that feed around your semi-abandoned crop sites. This can include fruit trees, berry bushes, corn, soybeans, horse feed type stuff, maybe beans. I understand that tomato plants are a gamble unless they are cultivated and heavily fertilized the first year and get large enough to survive the freeze cycles through winter, but if you can get a large strand of tomatoes to grow feral then that's a pretty good food source.


If you prune trees right, you can hide entire roads from the air, especially the meandering track type roads. I did some work in Manzanita bushes in Northern CA where basically "hollowing" them out over the course of a few years made it where you could pull a truck under them and have a nice shaded spot, good cover from the air and ground level observation, and actual security because of controlled access points combined with other parts left feral meant you could not be approached from just any direction. Criminals turned that whole place into an operation when I moved away, and I heard did everything from running a chop shop in there to cooking meth.

Something I did on an Oregon property was cultivate the blackberries around old scrap fencing, to the point that the hedge barriers could stop a tank. Maybe not stop him cold, but damn sure jam up the tracks badly, more so than concertina wire. For that matter, a site can be set up with old surplus concertina wire (obtained for next to nothing around military bases, and sometimes they might even pay you to take it away) and then your concertina wire barriers planted with blackberry bushes and other greenage. Blackberries and concertina - that's what you call some barrier security and one good growing season into it, an irregular shape barrier network will be impossible to tell from the air.

I like the tank barrier stuff. However, the rugged terrain (where I am speaking of) is so full of trees 3 feet thick, and boulders the size of buses and yahts, that tank travel would be impractical.

As for gas tanks, roads, etc... There is none of that stuff where I speak of. The only realistic approach would be on foot. There is no other way.

I think the kind of place you speak of could be of use elsewhere, in other communities... but when all hell breaks loose, I will not build a community where people addicted to modern contrivances are free to go. For me, it is cave man style, or nothing. I have nothing against others creating the kind of place you mention... and certainly there is a need for them, but I do not trust modernization.

If you can drive a vehicle there, it's not safe.
If you can be tracked easily, it's not safe.
If you can be detected from the air, it's not safe.


Now I would like to mention something. I know this will scare some people off, but that is too bad. While I was running my survial school, I became very discouraged about my dreams for what I wanted to accomplish with it. I won't get into my ideas, lest big brother is watching... which would identify me. So, like I said, I was discouraged because I felt everyone thought my survival stuff was fun and games, and downplay the potentiontial for my movement to sink down some roots. I never told anyone I was discouraged. However, our mid-wife who is a great intercessor and woman of God approached me and said, "ancientskills, (i omit my name) I was praying and God spoke to me. He wanted me to tell you not to be discouraged in your pursuit of wilderness survival skills, because the persecuted church is going to be so thankful that you took the time to preserve these things".

Now, I took it with a grain of salt. When someone tells me "God told me to tell you", I am wary. However, as the years have gone by... I believe this word was prophetic. I used to think it was impossible, but not any more. Persecution is at our door.

Now since I genuinely feel that this is a high calling of God on my life, I must remain true to skills, structure, organization of what I have developed. There is nothing like it. It is something I will have to introduce to people. I honestly see myself as a wilderness underground church pastor...and minuteman. So for the sake of this conviction, I can't adopt plans that allow for modern equipment, unless it can be carted in via canoe and on foot. Anything else is a give away to people who will be fleeing society to worship God freely.

But there is a place for other communities... with gas tanks, and vehicles, and water tanks, etc. I feel the underground communities could be like the church: the hand can not say to the foot, "I do not need you". Because we are one. Even so, communities have their purpose, but my high calling is for total primitivism: living like natives... but with tactical arms as well as primitive ways.

I could see that as a remote training and hole-up site. A true low profile site for doing some types of things that are best done out in the middle of nowhere, but living caveman style is basically a loss scenario.

Another part of the issue is evacuating refugees and families. It is one thing to be fighting mobile and all, another thing for a lot of us is to make sure our non-combatants are in a relatively safe, secure and comfortable area.

Maybe we could classify the site types, since I can see how several are going to be useful.

Prepping the place without some sort of power tools though, that is an exercise in primitive living and all, but not an exercise in effective modern guerrilla technique, and definitely not an exercise in reconstructing a viable and sustainable system of government to replace the one we have.

The Greeks and Romans were primitive by our standards, and had sustainable agriculture figured out. I like the idea of survivability and all, but the Indians here in North America were the result of a failure of civilization, mainly due to the dysfunctionality of the major technological civilizations that had been formed in this hemisphere.

Breacher I appreciate such comments. I can not see how living "caveman style" is a loss scenario.

I agree that classifying site types would be necessary. Each location is unique.

I have read that a West Point Military strategist has said that historically, guerilla fighters have been most successful when they had a huge jungle or forest to retreat into, which was part of a territory that funded the group.


Here is the kind of scenario on my mind: Obama's war on "extremism" or something of that nature. Let's say, that without warning, a nation wide sting operation to crack down on militia groups ensues without warning. Your in your underwear, scrambling eggs for breakfast, and you get a phone call. On the line you hear, "Hi, bob. Are you home?" You say, "Yeah, who is this?" The phone goes dead, and as your pondering who called you, the ATF comes kicking down your door. And lets just say, some how you get out after shooting a few. Where do you go? How do you meet? Now I am not suggesting we discuss where and how on this forum.

This is my point. We need a plan. So we are not running down the street in our underwear with our AR, hoping we can meet up with all the others who are about to have their doors kicked in. I understand all groups are supposed to have that kind of place. My main concern is, what if my local group is totally out of commision?

Some people must think I am a total idiot for discussing this on a forum. But let's face it, some of us are looking for groups to hook up with, and we find nothing. In my case, I have a group that disbanded because of media coverage. Things can turn on a dime. So, if I sound stupid discussing "ideas" here on a public forum, sorry. The fact is, some sort of communication must occur in order to form functioning groups, and it's not going to happen talking to sheeple.

pm sent ancient skills. please contact me

Only plan in such a case it to evac, conduct lone wolf guerrilla operations on the move and find others of similar mindset and form a new group from that.

yep +1 Asher